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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 20:46:04 GMT
Thisboycries - 'Sorrow' should not count. it was not a David Bowie Song. (Shame-faced to say it, but I don't know 'Kristina' at all well. I need to immerse myself there to be able to come to some sort of view!) Personally, I still count 'Sorrow' in that run of singles, as the 'Pin-Ups' album was a real 'project' and therefore the song wasn't just a throwaway, fill-a-gap single. To my mind, as that LP was one of the clutch of albums with the 'Spiders' backing band (or Ronson & Bolder, at least), I don't discount it from the Bowie CV (although I know that others definitely do, or sort-of do). But, again just for a bit of fun, let's remove 'Sorrow' and include 'Changes' instead. That gives us: SOS v Changes - tie Mamma Mia v Starman - tie Fernando v John I'm Only Dancing - ABBA win (just) Dancing Queen v Jean Genie - ABBA win (just) Money Money Money v Drive-In Saturday - Bowie win (just) Knowing Me Knowing You v Life on Mars - Bowie win (fairly comfortably) Name of the Game v Rebel Rebel - Bowie win (just) Take a Chance on Me v Rock 'n' Roll Suicide - tie ABBA 3.5 / Bowie 4.5 Interesting! Hours of fun!!! KMKY is, of course, a magnificent song - one of ABBA's very finest. But IMO it's up against one of the very greatest songs of all time - any period, any genre. Hence the verdict here. |
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Post by shoshin on Jan 25, 2018 22:57:45 GMT
Don't make me choose between SOS and Life On Mars  It's Life On Mars, dammit. Yet I've spent years on ABBA fan sites, and none on Bowie ones SOS v Starman - tie ABBA win (just)Mamma Mia v John I'm Only Dancing - ABBA win (v. easily) Bowie win (comfortably)Fernando v Jean Genie - Bowie win (comfortably) AgreedDancing Queen v Drive-In Saturday - ABBA win (just) AgreedMoney Money Money v Life on Mars - Bowie (comfortably) AgreedKnowing Me Knowing You v Sorrow - ABBA win (v. easily) AgreedName of the Game v Rebel Rebel - Bowie win (just) ABBA win (just)Take a Chance on Me v Rock 'n' Roll Suicide - tie Agreed
ABBA win 4.5/3.5
SOS v Changes - tie ABBA win (just)Mamma Mia v Starman - tie Bowie win (comfortably)Fernando v John I'm Only Dancing - ABBA win (just) Bowie win (just)Dancing Queen v Jean Genie - ABBA win (just) AgreedMoney Money Money v Drive-In Saturday - Bowie win (just) Agreed Knowing Me Knowing You v Life on Mars - Bowie win (fairly comfortably) Agreed but (just)Name of the Game v Rebel Rebel - Bowie win (just) ABBA win (just)Take a Chance on Me v Rock 'n' Roll Suicide - tie AgreedBowie win 4.5/3.5 |
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Post by gary on Jan 26, 2018 0:54:10 GMT
Great to hear there are Bowie fans on this forum. Bowie is one of only two songwriters that I rate more highly than B&B. (The other is Springsteen, since you ask.) And he’s easily the greatest British songwriter ever, IMHO, though Elton John and John Lennon give him some competition.
Anyway, I will play the game and see how the best ABBA singles period matches up with Bowie’s.
First set (including Sorrow):
SOS v Starman - ABBA win, fairly easily
Mamma Mia v John I’m Only Dancing - Bowie win
Fernando v Jean Genie - ABBA win by a mile
Dancing Queen v Drive-In Saturday - ABBA win
Money Money Money v Life On Mars? - Bowie win by a mile
Knowing Me Knowing You v Sorrow - ABBA win by a mile
The Name Of The Game v Rebel Rebel - ABBA win by a mile
Take A Chance On Me v Rock ‘n’ Roll Suicide - ABBA win
That’s 6-2 in ABBA’s favour.
Second set (without Sorrow):
SOS v Changes - ABBA win
Mamma Mia v Starman - Bowie win
Fernando v John I’m Only Dancing - ABBA win by a mile
Dancing Queen v Jean Genie - ABBA win by a mile
Money Money Money v Drive-In Saturday - Bowie win by a mile
Knowing Me Knowing You v Life On Mars? - ugh, two of the best songs ever, ABBA win
The Name Of The Game v Rebel Rebel - ABBA win by a mile
Take A Chance On Me v Rock ‘n’ Roll Suicide - ABBA win
And ABBA win again by 6-2.
I hope there’s no inconsistencies there!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2018 8:52:29 GMT
Good work, guys! It's agonising,isn't it? Just for the record, I put both ABBA and Bowie in the very top echelon, which makes it a great contest. Obviously my overall scores are closer to shoshin's, in contrast to gary's thumping wins for ABBA. I guess my composite all-time Top 5 might look something like: 1) Heroes; 2) Life on Mars; 3) The Visitors; 4) Eagle; 5) Station to Station.
I was wondering what the next eight singles might look like head-to-head (I'm omitting 'Knock on Wood' and the re-release of 'Space Oddity'):
Summer Night City v Diamond Dogs - Bowie win (reasonably comfortably)
Chiquitita v Young Americans - Bowie win (just)
Does Your Mother Know v Fame - Bowie win (easily)
Voulez-Vous/Angeleyes v Golden Years - ABBA win (JUST...and only really because it's two against one!)
Gimme Gimme Gimme v TVC 15 - ABBA win (just)
I Have A Dream v Sound and Vision - Bowie win (by light-years)
The Winner Takes It All v Heroes - Bowie win (surprisingly comfortably - but another heavyweight contest)
Super Trouper v Beauty and the Beast - Bowie win (just)
Oh dear - ABBA 2 Bowie 6!
How about ABBA's Big Eight v Kate Bush's First Eight (omitting the On Stage EP):
SOS v Wuthering Heights - Kate win (just)
Mamma Mia v Man with the Child in his Eyes - ABBA win
Fernando v Hammer Horror - Kate win (just)
Dancing Queen v Wow - ABBA win (fairly comfortably)
Money Money Money v Breathing - Kate win (just)
Knowing Me Knowing You v Babooshka - ABBA win (fairly comfortably)
The Name Of The Game v Army Dreamers - ABBA win (comfortably)
Take A Chance On Me v December Will Be Magic Again - ABBA win (easily)
ABBA win 5-3
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2018 14:28:26 GMT
Just creating a thread to pick up on discussions from the 'Chess' thread. Hopefully Mike will drop the relevant posts in below and you can see what the aim is.
The idea is to compare ABBA's output with that of other acts that we rate similarly highly. (No point comparing ABBA with Black Lace, for instance - we're looking for some genuine Battles of the Titans here!)
The only limitation is that there's no limitation - singles, albums and any subsets thereof are all equally legit.
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Post by gary on Jan 27, 2018 5:14:43 GMT
Summer Night City v Diamond Dogs - ABBA win, but love them both
Chiquitita v Young Americans - Bowie win, but love them both
Does Your Mother Know v Fame - ABBA win (not overly keen on DYMK but I really don’t like Fame)
Angeleyes/Voulez-Vous v Golden Years - difficult to compare two with one but AE > GY > VV, so I guess ABBA win
Gimme Gimme Gimme v TVC15 - Bowie win by a mile
I Have A Dream v Sound And Vision - Bowie win by light years
The Winner Takes It All v Heroes - Bowie win, but again love them both
Super Trouper v Beauty And The Beast - ABBA win
(Pedant corner: you missed out Be My Wife.)
And that’s a tie, 4-4!
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Post by gary on Jan 27, 2018 5:32:49 GMT
Let’s see if I can compare ABBA albums with Bowie albums. There’s only eight proper ABBA albums, whereas there are at least three times that many from Bowie, ranging from the sublime to the horrible. What are Bowie’s best eight consecutive albums? I think I would go with The Man Who Sold The World to Station To Station, but a very good case could be made for Hunky Dory to Low. So here goes:
Ring Ring v The Man Who Sold The World - Bowie win
Waterloo v Hunky Dory - there aren’t enough light years, Bowie win
ABBA v Ziggy Stardust - ditto, Bowie win
Arrival v Aladdin Sane - ABBA win, just
The Album v Pin-Ups - ABBA win by light years
Voulez-Vous v Diamond Dogs - Bowie win
Super Trouper v Young Americans - ABBA win
The Visitors v Station To Station - Bowie win
Bowie wins, 5-3. (Bear in mind that ABBA would win against almost any other artist. And if you chose Bowie’s eight consecutive worst albums, I think ABBA would sweep the board.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 8:59:34 GMT
(Pedant corner: you missed out Be My Wife.) I didn't realise 'Be My Wife' was a UK single - apologies! Great track, and wouldn't weaken the overall set of eight at all. (Though the head to heads would be affected, of course). Right - albums! Just for the record, I really like the 1969 'David Bowie' ('Space Oddity') album (esp. 'Memory of a Free Festival' - always in my Bowie Top Ten) but very happy to start with TMWSTW: Ring Ring v The Man Who Sold The World - tie (I've a massive 'guilty' soft spot for Ring Ring, and find TMWSTW a bit rambly in places) Waterloo v Hunky Dory - Bowie win (the Universe simply isn't big enough or old enough to articulate the scale of this victory) ABBA v Ziggy Stardust - Bowie win (I'm a massive fan of the 'ABBA' album, but this for me is Bowie's best) Arrival v Aladdin Sane - tie The Album v Pin-Ups - ABBA win (very easily) Voulez-Vous v Diamond Dogs - Bowie win (very comfortably - one of my Top Three Bowie albums) Super Trouper v Young Americans - ABBA win (reasonably comfortably) The Visitors v Station To Station - ABBA win (the hardest head-to-head for me - my favourite ABBA album against a Bowie epic). 4 - 4 - a tie! And I'm not going to split them! What if the ABBA albums went up against Bowie's next eight? (This is fun! And apols if I've missed anything.) Ring Ring v Low - Bowie win (comfortably) Waterloo v Heroes - Bowie win (by a humungous margin) ABBA v Lodger - ABBA win (fairly comfortably, but I'm a big fan of the underrated Lodger) Arrival v Scary Monsters - tie The Album v Let's Dance - ABBA win (fairly comfortably; those two mega-filler tracks, Without You & Shake It, drag Let's Dance down) Voulez-Vous v Tonight - ABBA win (fairly comfortably - although I actually don't mind Tonight (!!!) and find it fairly listenable, if unchallenging) Super Trouper v Never Let Me Down - ABBA win (comfortably - but again, I quite like NLMD - there's some blatant filler but 'Time Will Crawl' is right up there, for me) The Visitors v Black Tie White Noise - ABBA win (easily). ABBA win 5.5 v 2.5 Of the Bowie albums after these, 'Reality' is my favourite - I'd have that on a par with ABBA's upper-middle-quality work. |
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Post by gary on Jan 27, 2018 10:00:52 GMT
Be My Wife didn’t trouble the UK charts (!), so it’s a bit obscure.
I really like the Space Oddity album too. There’s not really a weak track on it. But I couldn’t let Station To Station drop off the other end - it’s one of Bowie’s half-dozen or so perfect albums.
Glad to hear you love the Diamond Dogs album. It’s in my top three too, along with the more obvious Hunky and Ziggy. I love the Diamond Dogs concept feel - it’s like a good sci-fi novel!
There’s not much post-Let’s Dance that I really like. Suddenly his talent evaporated. The odd track is OK, and Blackstar is a nice swan song. Perhaps it’s an age thing (mine, not Bowie’s).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 10:47:10 GMT
Same Top Three albums then! (Ziggy > Hunky Dory > Diamond Dogs, for me.)
In terms of post-Golden Age Bowie, I don't mind his 'Phil Collins years' period. After that, I don't have the Tin Machine albums and there's nothing from the 90s that's anything like essential. (Bits of 'Outside' at a push.) I was pretty underwhelmed by 'Heathen' too. But I do think 'Reality' is an excellent album. 'The Next Day' is cut from the same cloth, but not as good - though still pretty decent. 'Blackstar' is a fitting finale - but I've definitely got to be in the right mood for it!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 15:04:30 GMT
Let's line up The Police's singles for a good ABBA-ing. Not including 'Fall Out' and 'Six-pack':
SOS v Can't Stand Losing You - ABBA win (comfortably)
Mamma Mia v Roxanne - ABBA win (just - never been that big on Roxanne)
Fernando v Message in a Bottle - Police win (massively)
Dancing Queen v Walking on the Moon - Police win (by the smallest possible margin)
Money Money Money v So Lonely - Police win (just)
Knowing Me Knowing You v Don't Stand So Close To Me - ABBA win (fairly comfortably)
Name of the Game v De Do Do Do - tie (I've a soft spot for the dumb fun of DDDD)
Take a Chance on Me v Invisible Sun - ABBA win (easily)
Summer Night City v Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic - Police win (easily)
Chiquitita v Spirits in the Material World - Police win (easily)
Does Your Mother Know v Every Breath You Take - Police win (easily)
Angeleyes/Voulez-Vous v Wrapped Around Your Finger - ABBA win (easily)
Gimme Gimme Gimme v Synchronicity II - ABBA win (fairly comfortably)
I Have A Dream v King of Pain - Police win (easily)
ABBA 6.5 Police 7.5
Obviously ABBA don't get the chance to dragoon in 'Winner Takes it All' so that unbalances the result a bit. Call it a moral tie overall.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 19:09:31 GMT
ABBA's 8 albums v Kate Bush's first 8 albums
Waterloo v The Kick Inside - Kate win (by miles)
Ring Ring v Lionheart - Kate win (fairly easily)
ABBA v Never Forever - ABBA win (easily)
Arrival v The Dreaming - Kate win (her best album)
The Album v Hounds of Love - ABBA win (just)
Voulez-Vous v The Sensual World - ABBA win (just)
Super Trouper v The Red Shoes - ABBA win (not by much)
The Visitors v Aerial - ABBA win (comfortably)
ABBA 5 Kate Bush 3
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Post by shoshin on Feb 8, 2018 1:18:35 GMT
The only ABBA record that I ever bought at the time, whether single or album, was Arrival. Needless to say I kept that purchase quiet from fellow Jam fanatics. Forty years on, this thread has finally cornered me into a reassessment of the enduring merits of ABBA and The Jam, with the following results:
In The City v. Knowing Me Knowing You. ABBA wins. All Around The World v. The Name of The Game. ABBA wins, just. The Modern World v. Take A Chance On Me. ABBA wins, just. But it wouldn't have won against All Around The World. News Of The World v. Summer Night City. An uninspiring draw. David Watts/A Bomb in Wardour Street v. Chiquitita. Difficult one. ABBA wins dammit. Down In The Tube Station v. Does Your Mother Know. Jam wins; any Jam single wins against DYMK. Strange Town v. Voulez Vous/Angel Eyes. Jam wins comfortably When You're Young v. Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Jam wins I'm afraid. When You're Young is my all time favourite play-it-at-my-funeral single. The Eton Rifles v. I Have A Dream. Jam wins easily, even though I was never that keen on Eton Rifles. Going Underground/Dreams of Children v. The Winner Takes It All. Nasty one. Jam wins, just. Start! v. On And On And On. Jam wins. Not cos Start! was that strong, but cos OAOAO was weak. Funeral Pyre v. Super Trouper. Another uninspiring draw. Absolute Beginners v. Lay All Your Love On Me. A much more entertaining draw. Town Called Malice/Precious v. One Of Us. ABBA wins. The Jam were losing their mojo by now, as far as I was concerned. The Bitterest Pill v. Head Over Heels. Yawn. Call it a draw, but ABBA has got off lightly. Beat Surrender v. The Day Before You Came. ABBA wins.
ABBA 6, Jam 6, 4 draws.
Well I never.
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Post by gary on Feb 8, 2018 10:57:36 GMT
^ I've seen you express your dislike of Does Your Mother Know before. It's your least favourite ABBA song, I believe? Is there any particular reason? Lead vocals by Bjorn, perhaps? It's not a great favourite of mine either, and I remember at the time thinking that it was the first ABBA single since I became a fan (SOS) that I didn't love. But DYMK is still quite a catchy song, and I would rate it as middling ABBA. With vocals by Frida, say, it would certainly have been better!
Anyway, apart from ABBA and Bowie, my other favourite artist is Bruce Springsteen. Conveniently, his 'classic' period, in my opinion, lasts for eight albums. Let's see how those eight albums compare with ABBA's eight.
Ring Ring v Greetings From Asbury Park - Bruce wins
Waterloo v The Wild, The Innocent and The E Street Shuffle - Bruce wins
ABBA v Born To Run - Bruce wins by miles
Arrival v Darkness On The Edge Of Town - Bruce wins
The Album v The River - close, ABBA win just
Voulez-Vous v Nebraska - ABBA win easily
Super Trouper v Born In The USA - ABBA win
The Visitors v Tunnel Of Love - Bruce wins
ABBA 3, Bruce 5. But ABBA would win against any other period of Bruce.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 12:34:12 GMT
Can't add a lot to those, as they're largely outside my field of detailed knowledge. Regarding The Jam, 'Eton Rifles' was my favourite of theirs so it's a 'light years' margin over IHAD. I'd take David Watts over Chiquitita, quite comfortably. Actually, ABBA singles v classic Kinks singles might be interesting! I'm also enthused by the battle between 'Bitterest Pill' (one of not that many Jam records I bought) and HOH (a favourite of mine) - ABBA win that one, for me, fairly comfortably. My 'relegation battle' would be 'Malice' v 'One of Us' - really don't like either song, I'm afraid. Like shoshin, I'd take 'Going Undergound' (what a song that is!) over TWTIA.
As for Bruce, I'd actually be inclined to give 'Born in the USA' the edge over 'Super Trouper' or at least plump for a draw. Strangely, the track that holds 'Born in the USA' back is 'Dancing in the Dark' which I've always found a bit irritating. Apart from that, it's jam-packed with absolute anthems!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2018 10:12:59 GMT
We're off to see a Bowie tribute act tonight, so while I'm warming up by listening to TR&FOZS&TSFM, I'd thought I'd stick my neck out with a track-by-track clash between this, my favourite Bowie album, and 'The Visitors', my favourite ABBA album (with a couple of obvious bonus tracks lobbed in to even up the numbers):
The Visitors v Five Years - ABBA win (two absolute belters, though)
Head over Heels v Soul Love - ABBA win (comfortably - HOH is Top-Ten ABBA, for me)
When All is Said and Done v Moonage Daydream - Bowie win (comfortably)
Soldiers v Starman - Bowie win (comfortably)
I Let the Music Speak v It Ain't Easy - ABBA win (comfortably)
One of Us v Lady Stardust - Bowie win (easily)
Two for the Price of One v Star - ABBA win (I love both of these, in case this looks odd)
Slipping through My Fingers v Hang On to Yourself - ABBA win (easily)
Like An Angel Passing through My Room v Ziggy Stardust - Bowie win (easily)
The Day Before You Came v Suffragette City - Bowie win (easily)
Under Attack v Rock 'n' Roll Suicide - Bowie win (very easily)
The Visitors 5 Ziggy 6
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Post by gary on Feb 10, 2018 13:17:57 GMT
Their names escape me (Absolute Bowie?) but there are some excellent Bowie tribute acts around, and let's face it we are never going to see the real thing again. Luckily, I did see the real thing several times back in the 1970s-1990s.
Anyway, I'll do the same comparison. It's not quite fair, as Ziggy Stardust is my favourite Bowie album, and The Visitors is nowhere near my favourite ABBA album (that would be Arrival).
The Visitors v Five Years - Bowie win
Head Over Heels v Soul Love - Bowie win easily
When All Is Said And Done v Moonage Daydream - Bowie win
Soldiers v Starman - Bowie win
I Let The Music Speak v It Ain't Easy - ABBA win easily
One Of Us v Lady Stardust - ugh, the best track on BOTH albums, ABBA win
Two For The Price Of One v Star - Bowie win easily
Slipping Through My Fingers v Hang On To Yourself - ABBA win
Like An Angel Passing Through My Room v Ziggy Stardust - Bowie win
The Day Before You Came v Suffragette City - Bowie win
Under Attack v Rock 'n' Roll Suicide - Bowie win easily
The Visitors 3, Ziggy 8!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 20:58:29 GMT
Be interested to see how 'Arrival' matches up to 'Ziggy' in your eyes.
(The Bowie tribute was 'Popup Bowie'. Superb evening! Highly recommended!)
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Post by gary on Feb 11, 2018 22:11:37 GMT
I can do that. There’s 10 tracks on Arrival and 11 tracks on Ziggy Stardust, so I’ll add Fernando to Arrival (like the Australian version of Arrival).
When I Kissed The Teacher v Five Years - Bowie wins just
Dancing Queen v Soul Love - ABBA wins
My Love My Life v Moonage Daydream - Bowie wins
Dum Dum Diddle v Starman - Bowie wins
Knowing Me Knowing You v It Ain’t Easy - ABBA wins
Money Money Money v Lady Stardust - Bowie wins
That’s Me v Star - ABBA wins
Why Did It Have To Be Me v Hang On To Yourself - ABBA wins
Fernando v Ziggy Stardust - ABBA wins
Tiger v Suffragette City - ABBA wins
Arrival v Rock ‘n’ Roll Suicide - Bowie wins
Arrival 6, Ziggy Stardust 5. Bit surprised at that, as I reckon Ziggy is the better album. But it’s effectively a tie, as Fernando isn’t really an Arrival track.
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